CONSERVATION ADVISORY COUNCIL MINUTES

October 10, 2005

Present:

Matthew Mastrantone, Acting Chair
Rodney Dow

Andrew Galler

John Sussmeier

David Klotzle, Wetlands Inspector (WI)
Isabel Lopatin, Secretary

Richard Shea, Town Council Liaison

Absent

Lew Kingsley

Eric Lind

Phil Vartanian

Guests:

Harry Burse

Tod Karas

Edward Kreps

Salvatore Triano

Material Distributed

None.

The regular October meeting of the Town of Philipstown Conservation Advisory Council (CAC) was held in Philipstown Town Hall.  The meeting was called to order by Acting Chairman Matthew Mastrantone at 7:37 pm.

Applicant: Edward Kreps

Representative: Salvatore Triano

Tax Lot:

Mr. Triano made a brief presentation about the work that was done on regulated areas on this property even though no permit was issued. He stated that the owners have cleaned the pond every ten years since purchasing the property. The pond is very shallow: 6’ in the deeper areas. The deepest part is near the old stone spillway. The northeast corner contains a pipe from the town road that discharges road runoff, which causes sand, gravel and item 4 from the road to accumulate in the pond. He said that this, not silt or typical pond muck, was the main cause of the pond’s problems. There is almost a plume that goes down from the area of the pipe into one end of the pond. The access road is not where it’s shown on the plan but is close to the dam because that’s easier. The pond is dammed and there is an old gate valve that can be used to release water. The steel shaft of the valve has deteriorated and doesn’t work very well. The contractor’s objective was to repair the valve, and most of the work was done but the rain came just before he finished.

WI commented that the piles of material he had seen were more substantial than what would have come off the road. Mr. Triano rejoined that the pond had been cleaned out and that there was muck from areas of the pond that he indicated on the plan. Also, the old beach had been taken out and replaced with sand that was on site. WI said some dredging of pond material must have taken place and Mr. Burse said it had. He and Mr. Triano agreed that the west side of the pond was muck and not road runoff. He said there was a drastic difference in the materials from the two sides of the pond, and that it was as if the road material had forced the muck on one side into the middle. He said that he had not removed any existing beach but had added more sand to both the beach near the house and the one near the dam. He added that the old sand was dirty but was not removed. He was ready to finish the valve work Saturday, but was prevented by the heavy rain. The valve would have been fixed and about 50 square feet of concrete repairs done on the dam below the mud line, where there had been a leak. It was prepped but is now under water. When previous repairs were done, water was never drawn down all the way.

Mr. Mastrantone asked if building department approval had been obtained. Mr. Burse said yes, and that Tom Monroe had given him WI’s phone number. He had talked to him last year when the face of the dam was repaired. WI said that if nothing changes the valve could not be used this winter to release pressure caused by ice pushing off the top of the dam. Mr. Triano added that it would be good to have the ability to lower the water level again. He thought it might be possible to open the valve but not to close it. WI asked if they would wait until next year, but Mr. Triano said he would like to do it this year. WI asked how the pond could be lowered now, and Mr. Triano said it could be pumped or a siphon put across, or the valve could be opened. Mr. Burse said the valve couldn’t be closed without diving.

Mr. Dow wondered where the valve emptied, and Mr. Triano said the water went into a little stream that went directly under the road, but he didn’t know where it went after that. Mr. Dow said he was there yesterday and had looked for a pipe for the overflow, and Mr. Triano said there was an 8” pipe. Mr. Dow added that there were dead fish over the dam and in the stream, and WI said they had probably washed out of the pond due to the heavy rain. Mr. Burse said he hadn’t wanted to open the valve Sunday because it would cause worse flooding below. He released the wooden slot that’s in the spillway, and in 7 hours the water caught up to the spillway. Before that there was water pouring over the dam. Mr. Triano thought there would be additional repairs necessary because of the storm.

Mr. Galler asked about the current condition of the dam, and Mr. Triano replied that it was in good shape. He said it was an old mortared stone dam, and not very tall. The outboard side has some erosion and part of the work that he would do would be to strip vegetation out and make repairs. Perhaps there would be rip-rap added for preservation. He added that the dam is not DEC regulated and not even classified as a dam per se because it is neither ten feet tall nor storing enough water to meet state criteria.

Mr. Mastrantone said he wasn’t sure where to go with this. He said that not repairing the dam could create a liability for people downstream. WI said that repairing the valve and valve stem would still be the best thing for everyone in that situation. The environment of the pond was already disturbed, and he wondered what it would take to get the situation back to what it was before the storm. Mr. Burse thought two days, but he wouldn’t think of opening the valve until all water downstream had receded. He thought that continued washing over the top would further undermine the back side of the dam. If it happened when no one was around, a neighbor would open the valve.

Mr. Galler asked if the valve was going to be repaired, and Mr. Triano answered that the valve was fine, it was the valve stem that was the problem. Mr. Galler then wondered if an 8” valve was big enough for a pond that didn’t have a perfect dam. Mr. Triano said it would serve no purpose to dismantle the dam and install a larger sluice gate system, considering the drainage system that feeds the pond and how it typically fills. Mr. Dow observed that if it was too much it would take out the road, and Mr. Triano agreed. He thought that it had functioned for a long time for a reason, and that it should just be repaired. Mr. Burse said that while they were in there he would like to clean up the bed and put a little stone off to the side to build it up, not changing the contour. It goes down to two feet at the road. He thought that if the Town could do something like put a catch system in where the pipe from the road washes material in, it would be very helpful. WI commented that this was typical of the Town’s dirt road problems.

Mr. Mastrantone said he thought that the Town engineer as well as someone from the Highway and Legal departments should look at the situation because he didn’t want CAC to put any liability on the town if a permit was given but the work failed. WI said that right now the dam was there and the water was behind it, and that had been the existing situation. Mr. Mastrantone asked if he thought prolonging the existing situation was the thing to do, and WI said that repairing the existing valve was appropriate. Mr. Galler said that the prudent thing to do would be to empty the pond now and take a look at the dam. Mr. Triano said there wouldn’t have been any new damage on the inside, but there could have been on the outboard side. He wanted to get the little streambed functioning again, because if it and the culvert clogged up, there would be overflow going across the road that would take the road out, and that would be nothing to do with the dam itself. He said that this cleaning would be part of long-term maintenance.

Mr. Sussmeier asked how much water the pond impounds when the water is high. Mr. Triano said he could figure it out, but it wasn’t a whole lot. Mr. Sussmeier said that DEC regulates ponds that have dams over ten feet high at their tallest or impound more than one million gallons of water, and his guess was that there was more than one millions gallons of water in this pond. Mr. Galler asked about the surface area. Mr. Sussmeier said the pond was shallow but the surface area was great. Mr. Triano said the depth averaged 3-4’, and Mr. Sussmeier said he wanted to see the numbers so it could be determined if the DEC Dam Section in Albany needed to have a look. Mr. Galler asked again about the surface area, and Mr. Triano did not have the numbers. There followed inconclusive discussion about the volume, but Mr. Sussmeier was pretty sure that there was more than a million gallons. He added that he brought it up because he, like Mr. Mastrantone, was concerned about safety. He said it was good that there were no structures downstream, but a dam failure would wash out the road. Mr. Mastrantone said that he thought there were several dams like this on East Mountain Road and that this was something that needed to be looked at because the mountain was being built up. Mr. Sussmeier said that at the very least the Council should request an engineer’s certification that the dam was safe.

Mr. Galler said that the work could be approved in pieces, and the first thing to do was to permit the work needed for repair of the valve stem. The rest could be worked out later. Mr. Triano said that if it was going to be done in pieces, the work should start with valve and dam repair. WI said that it should be maintained until the water volume was calculated, and Mr. Triano said he could get the number quickly. WI suggested that the Council could recommend that the Town hire an engineer to look at the situation, whether it would mean hiring Putnam Engineering, contracting it out to Bibbo or accepting Mr. Triano’s certification. Mr. Sussmeier said that the burden of proof was on the engineer designing the project, but if this was under DEC jurisdiction, the dam would have to be registered with the state.

WI said he would issue a permit for draining the pond again [no permit had been requested for the initial draining] and fixing the valve, and the next steps remained to be seen. The water volume estimate would be obtained, and if Mr. Triano could certify the dam, that would be done. WI asked how much water would be retained in the pond once it was drained down enough to work on the valve stem, and was told it would be as much as 3’ in some places. Mr. Burse mentioned a protection berm he had put in right outside the valve, and that if it held, less water would have to be taken out. Mr. Mastrantone asked about a berm in the back and Mr. Triano said it was rock with some topsoil, and that a lot of the perimeter was big stone. Mr. Mastrantone wondered if it was about 500 yards of excavated material, and he wondered what how that translated into gallons. He added that this was work done in a regulated area without a permit aside from fixing the valve. Mr. Burse said he had to get to the valve.

WI said that he would write a permit for the valve, and there was general agreement. The water would be released and kept at that level until the dam was certified and it was known if DEC needed to be involved. As soon as that was done, WI would e-mail everybody. Mr. Sussmeier said that if the valve was wide open and there was another storm, a lot of stuff would go through the valve. Mr. Burse said that once the water level was down the valve could be closed by hand. There was discussion about pressure on the valve and finishing the work. Mr. Burse wanted a one week window of good weather.

Mr. Dow commented that there wasn’t a lot of room for the water to leave, and Mr. Triano said that cleaning up the exit point and keeping it in good shape was therefore important. Mr. Mastrantone said he wanted other engineering input before the pond was refilled, regardless of what condition it was in at the moment. Mr. Galler made the motion to grant the permit for valve repair. Mr. Sussmeier seconded it, and it was passed unanimously. WI added that the pond should not be refilled until more info was gathered, that is, the valve should be left open. He said that if Mr. Triano certified the dam and the water volume was less than one million gallons, perhaps the rest of the process with the Council could be taken care of by e-mail. Mr. Burse asked if he should clear away the vegetation, and Mr. Triano said that would be ideal from his perspective. It was agreed by WI and the Council that this should be done. WI said that he should be kept apprised of work and progress.

Jordan

Although Mr. Jordan was not present, some comments were made about this application. Mr. Dow said that the wetland was huge, extending to East Mountain Road North, and that the proposed driveway would cut it in half. WI said it might be state regulated, and that he would look at the new state maps to see if it was there. He added that if Mr. Dow had visited before the storm, it would have been dry, and the same thing was true of the nearby Wallis property. Mr. Mastrantone said that happens during a drought, but it was the rest of the time that we have to be concerned about. WI said it was poorly drained soil and very level.

Inspector’s Report

Mr. Lind called WI about a possible violation at Hayfields on Avery Lane. Shrub and brush had been cleared next to a wetland, and some grading had been done as well. WI wasn’t sure what property it was on, so he sent a letter to the presumed owner.

WI got a call about a development across from St. Basil’s where an existing driveway leads to a house built in an improbable place. Blasting and filling has been going on, and it’s all 100+ feet away from the wetlands, but some fill had been depositied 99 feet from the wetlands. WI has written the owner to tell him that work on the driveway will require a wetlands permit, and silt fences backed with hay bales must be erected. He said that Building Dept probably hadn’t sent the owner for a permit because the driveway cut existed, but it might have required a permit if more than 15 yards of fill were required. Mr. Mastrantone asked about steep slopes, and WI replied that there were steep slopes but well away from the wetland. Mr. Dow said a hole was blasted in the side of the hill and wondered how a septic system could be built in a rock field. WI said they’d truck in enough ???? to get their percs and that would be all they’d need.

WI continued that he had gotten about ten calls from people who’d received letters from DEC about the new state wetlands map. People were wondering if they could still use their property and he told them that they could but they would need DEC permits. He also told them they would need Town wetlands permits.

WI also reported that he looked over the DEIS from Garrison Golf Club. He looked at the wetlands planting plan for the stormwater detention plan, and he thinks it will work. He just hopes they will be careful about what they will do on the eroded hillside. He and the former Wetlands Advisory Committee had suggested to Glenn Watson that it be repaired because the pond will otherwise silt up in a year’s time. The hillside is gullied and scoured, and will require planting and terracing. Mr. Shea asked that this be put on paper and given to Town Board (TB), which had recently had a lengthy discussion with Mr. Watson regarding stormwater and hydrology on the site. TB was also concerned about neighbors’ wells going dry. Mr. Galler said he though there would be 3-D renderings of what the basin would look like. Mr. Sussmeier said this had been discussed but that Mr. Watson hadn’t committed to any of it, it was just recommendations to the Planning Board. Mr. Shea said it would have been good to have the other night. He said that when the Council defines parameters for these situations, TB should get copies.

WI said that the Warfield project had been very well done. He hadn’t been to the Gallegher site since the rain. They had started work. Mr. Mastrantone said that the Bowden site did not look good, and he commented about silt fence not being placed property. Mr. Sussmeier asked about Kevin Jones, and WI said he hadn’t been there in three days, but nothing new had been done since he had installed a septic holding tank, for which he had no permit. WI informed BOH, but nothing had been done.

Minutes of September 13, 2005

Minutes were approved as written on a motion by Mr. Sussmeier that was seconded by Mr. Dow and carried unanimously.

Closing of Meeting

The meeting was adjourned at 8:52 on a unanimously passed motion that was made by Mr. Dow and seconded by Mr. Galler.

Respectfully Submitted,

Isabel Lopatin, Secretary